Today, without much fanfare, the word press blog known as YDIS, or Your Dungeon Is Suck, was taken down for violating terms of agreement. Surprisingly, or maybe not surprisingly, there is little discussion about it, as it was a much maligned blog, and the writer no less. I'd like to talk a little about the SuckDungeon in a somber tone, if you don't mind. Please don't misconstrue my musings as an endorsement for the SuckDungeon's activities.
The more I think about YDIS, the more I think it's appropriate to compare the SuckDungeon to a vigilante. Yes, his methods were crude, boorish, insensitive, and caused all manners of distress. But he did fight against something he believed to be vile.
Consider this: the SuckDungeon regularly crusaded against the personalities of the OSR, as well as certain other individuals. He did this anonymously, and with great rancor. A lot of his writing was drowned out with crude noise, but I thought that once in a while, he made some valid criticisms. For example, is it okay for James Maliszewski, to ask his large following to send him out of print books and products? Is it okay for various publishers to ask for submissions without compensation? Is it okay for small conventions to pay for the expenses of big names who have not been associated with the hobby for decades? I think the shame is, some of these questions may or may have not been answered due to being drowned out in the noise. I think we can give him a small bit of credit for raising these questions.
However, any merit he may have earned doing so, he lost in the numerous personal attacks he made on other people. I have seen some vicious things said, things I am glad I wasn't on the other end of. He had his favorite targets: Jamie Mal, Alexis, John Adams, Stefen Poag, Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, and the list goes on. But the biggest target was James Raggi; the man had a boner for attacking James Raggi. I think if you agreed with his criticisms, you saw this cast as SuckDungeon's roster of villains, and if you didn't, then they were a list of people being attacked needlessly.
The SuckDungeon had an eternal mission: to put the celebrities of the OSR in their places. If you agreed with him, chances are, you participated with him with his group of followers. If you didn't, you probably stayed away. What I find interesting is the SuckDungeon manufactured a counter-culture to the counter-culture, a backlash against the OSR movement. Sure, they never made anything, but that wasn't the point.
From his perspective, SuckDungeon was the Batman of the OSR. From the other side, he was a villain. Two sides that will never reconcile. Perhaps you don't want to speak of it because it might stir him back to life, or you have some other reason. All I ask is that you observe the passing, because whether you loved or hated him, he was a force to be reckoned with; a man (or possibly woman) worthy of an OSR witch hunt.
I think the apt motto for Your Dungeon is Suck is "Don't hate the player, hate the game."
I think there is room for a "critical" blog in the OSR, now that every man & his dog writes a blog.
ReplyDeleteOf course some disagree with his methods but they are what drew alot of the attention. And without the venom he would have risked coming off as simply whiny.
I like some of the stuff his favourite targets put out, but not all of ot, nor do I mind seeing them criticised. It is shocking to me only how self righteous they got about it.
I agree alot of the time he was bang on target in pricking egos and peccadillo's. I miss YDIS.
I agree with your take on it. There's a real place for a blog that points out such things within the OSR community, but his methods were too inconsistent and crude. I'd love to see a more refined OSR social satire type blog take it's place. Truth is, sometimes the community needs to be called out on their foolishness.
ReplyDeleteblake: yeah, he might have come off whiny without the venom, but too often it was just a profanity-filled bunch of nonsense, lashing out almost blindly. And the comments below were a joke, and not on-topic at all. The message got drowned out regularly, which led to nobody really caring what was being said.
ReplyDeleteIndeed his occasional points did eventually drown amid the junk and at times it was undeniably personal, rather than pricking actual foibles he would just get set against a person rather than an issue.
ReplyDeleteI am saying there is room for a critical blog, not that it necessarily has to be venemous.
What I thought was BS about YDIS is the anonymous attacks on people like Christian of Destination Unknown. C maybe should have been more cautious about airing his insecurities etc. on his blog, but YDIS was just being an asshole bully when it attacked him.
ReplyDeleteThe constant anti-gay BS was out of line too. Satire, criticism, and all that is fine. YDIS was just a cesspit of negaivity. If they had a few good points it was drown out by the junior high locker room BS. Good riddance.
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ReplyDeleteYDIS wasn't a crusader. He wrapped himself in a cloak of a legitimate critic in order to spew bile. That's all he was.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't deserve a hero's funeral. Let his blood fall on barren rock and nourish nothing, much as his blogs did.
Ah, and we see the "defenders" of the OhhEssArr come to protect JaMal, JRaggi and ZakPrincess.
ReplyDeleteYou are the first blogger to actually spot the essence of what YDIS has pointed out - is it right for JaMal to beg (and expect) free RPG items? Is it right for JRaggi to peddle tripe and call himself progressive when he his not? Kudos to you.
Poag, you lost your legitimacy to criticize when you pussed out not once, but twice. Do yourself a favor and go back to what you do best with the orc/baby rape art. Otherwise you might hurt yourself with running with scissors.
Ditto on what Mr. Poag posted.
ReplyDeleteAnd regarding the supposed substantive critiques from YDIS that you mentioned (I didn't spend long enough there before it was shut down to pick up on them myself):
For example, is it okay for James Maliszewski, to ask his large following to send him out of print books and products?
Why not? I have gotten so much out of GROGNARDIA that I would seriously consider sending James something as a token of gratitude. I am relatively new to this community (played 2E from 1990-1999 and then took a break for the next 10 years), and GROGNARDIA's post "How Dragonlance Ruined Everything" is how I discovered the OSR. He also has a donate button on his blog as well. Do you think that is wrong too? Also, he has no ads. I think asking for donations is a more pleasant way of monetizing a blog. I think it's hard to overestimate the service that he does for the OSR.
Is it okay for various publishers to ask for submissions without compensation?
Why not? Doing work gratis is often how unknown writers get known. Many journalists get their start at unpaid internships.
Is it okay for small conventions to pay for the expenses of big names who have not been associated with the hobby for decades?
If the convention and its attendees see value in the big names, why not? Also, isn't this point in tension with the one about publishers? Writers should get paid, but conference presenters should not?
"The more I think about YDIS, the more I think it's appropriate to compare the SuckDungeon to a vigilante. Yes, his methods were crude, boorish, insensitive, and caused all manners of distress. But he did fight against something he believed to be vile."
ReplyDeleteYou mean like James Maliszewski having the gall to write a blog about D&D?
Or, James Raggi producing RPG stuff and... wait for it... Advertising it On His Blog?!?
"The SuckDungeon had an eternal mission: to put the celebrities of the OSR in their places. "
Let's get some fucking perspective. Here's some people who could use some Place Putting:
Top US foreclosure law firm threw Halloween party where staff dressed as foreclosed-upon Americans
The only mission the SuckDungeon had was belittling others and hiding. Who the heck in the OSR needs to be put in their place besides YDIS?
ReplyDeleteYDIS taken down for Violating Terms of Agreement? Now that shit is funny!
The internet is full of enough venom in the forums. "Raising issues" by belittling and bullying people is something we don't need in the tiny community of the OSR where people put their blood, sweat, and tears into their releases for very little reward.
ReplyDeleteI have given James money for his blog which I never do, and have never done before, with anyone else. It's a great value to me. I also think the other attacks on the OSR people are meaningless.
ReplyDeleteI will point out that, unlike the rest of the Internet, I never find myself drawn into flame wars and high degrees of contention with most of the writers and posters of the OSR. I can look at page after page, forum post after forum post, and generally agree with and appreciate what is being said - to an unusually high degree and consistency. In this sense, the OSR is like a break for me. I just appreciate it. I don't want to fight with it.
Good post Moldy Vale.
ReplyDeleteJames said:
"Let's get some fucking perspective. Here's some people who could use some Place Putting: Top US foreclosure law firm threw Halloween party where staff dressed as foreclosed-upon Americans"
Absolutely agree with this.
While I am glad that everyone is weighing in, I do not welcome on this blog, personal attacks based on homophobia, misogyny, racism, and other put downs based on marginalized groups, or non-marginalized groups. If you guys want to sling mud at each other, that is something I cannot control, but I do not welcome such attacks.
ReplyDeleteAnd the discussion taking place here highlights what I was trying to drive at in my blog entry: we all have different perspectives on the SuckDungeon. The perspective that the SuckDungeon is a vicious and venomous troll is almost universal, and for good reason. I felt it was useful to highlight a perspective that is not so widely conveyed.
In truthfulness, I enjoyed some of the commentary by the SuckDungeon and his entourage, but this was only limited to the commentary that did not make use of homophobia or misogyny, and did not personally attack others. I also enjoyed some of the criticisms he raised, which as I said before, I felt were valid questions. I will make it clear that I do not endorse his personal attacks or marginalizing language.
That one can answer the criticisms he has raised and I have reiterated only shows that we all have different opinions on these issues, but there is no objective truth to them. What SuckDungeon finds objectionable is not objectionable to Brendan. That there are wider social issues of higher import is irrelevant when we have designated a space for talking about games, in a discussion about what amounts to a vicious pundit of one side of the OSR.
If you hate the SuckDungeon, and you aren't doing it already, ignore him. It is hard; he and his entourage have set up a shark tank, and even when you're ignoring him, they will pick out their favorite targets and look for blood. I don't believe that we should be guarding of what we post, because I do not believe in blaming the victim. But there is no satisfactory way of dealing with the SuckDungeon if you're a target; the least damning way is to ignore him.
I sympathize with the conundrum of how to respond when one is attacked, though; there is no good answer.
ReplyDelete...and YDIS is down again...
ReplyDeleteLimpey: "Blaming someone who got attacked for getting attacked never seemed right to me. "
ReplyDeleteMM: agreed, actually. I'm not blaming C or saying he did anything wrong or provocative, I'm just saying people should recognize that people on the internet, as in real life, are assholes sometimes and you should as practical matter be wary. Sux but true. I shouldn't have to lock my doors at night but I do.
OTOH I put my name right there on my blog and when I comment in part to keep myself in check. All too easy to be an ass when there are layers of anonymity.
...and YDIS is back up again...
ReplyDelete..and it's down again. What the hell's going on over at WordPress?
ReplyDeleteRegarding James M asking for free stuff: if he came out and asked it wouldn't be so bad, but he makes it sound like he's not asking, yet there is no other reason to bring up what he does. It's the method he uses, in other words. Like the other day's asking about a product because he wanted to buy a "birthday present for himself", but lo and behold a few posts in someone offered to just mail him one. That'd be all well and good except you get the sense James *knows* this will happen, every time, because of his large readership. It feels slimy, that's all.
ReplyDeleteI just can't understand why one would care what other's said about them. Esp anonymous internet douchbags. Don't feed the trolls. Be confident in yourself. Be confident that people who matter will know who you are and not be swayed by what others say. If people don't "like" you, don't give a fuck. Like yourself.
ReplyDeleteFuck. He's back. Deal fucks.
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ReplyDeletelimpy, limpy, limpy... is that the best you can do?
ReplyDeleteA) Anyone can post on YDIS. It's the Internet and people don't get mugged going to others' blogs to comment. Otherwise you would have been in trouble a long time ago, hmm?
B) Sardonic, sarcastic commentary and critique is hardly going to stop publishing. If someone wishes to put themselves out there, they put themselves up for such. Was not the author of Carcosa threatened with bodily harm? It's not stopped him. Equating JaMal or Fraggi with excrement in a wordy way hardly can stop someone from publishing. However, in your case, we'll understand why it was.
Both of your problems are exaggerated, Limpey.
ReplyDeleteA) People who are "attacked" can and do answer on their own blogs. Like you when when you called them all nazis on posts you have since bravely deleted. Don't pretend that those who are spoken about have no recourse - as your own dramatic meltdown showed. Most are able to do it with class.
B)They are not "actively attempting to discourage other people from blogging, publishing, etc." They are making fun of some people, some of whom take themselves too seriously. Like you. If that discourages someone from blogging, that is their own insecurity. All you have to do is ignore them.
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ReplyDeleteThat is a sad way to admit you can't refute those points, Limpo.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you use your brilliant detective skills to find out who I am. You busted YDIS' identity. Several times.
ReplyDeleteMore importantly, you need to realize that some bozo critiquing your choice of art topics on his own petty blog is not taking a shit on your porch. You see your own porch every day; you don't ever have to check out his blog. Apples and oranges.
But then, you are mindlessly obsessed with YDIS, so you really can't help yorself, can you?
my god you are right. there is no point to it.
ReplyDelete